How to Have Better Coaching Conversations

Transcript

Beth Almes:

Hi leaders and welcome back to the Leadership 480 podcast. I'm your host Beth Almes, and today we're going to talk about how to have better coaching conversations with your team. The idea of a leader as a coach is certainly not new, it's been around for a few decades now, but it's still one of the most challenging and essential parts of a leader's job. And while you might not see the inspiring movies dedicated to leaders who are great coaches the same way you would see a famous sports coach, I promise it's every bit as rewarding when you get it right, you could make a movie about your life as a great coach.

And that brings me to my guest today who's going to talk to us about how to get those coaching conversations right. I'm happy to welcome Dr. Patrick Connell to the Leadership 480 podcast. Patrick is one of the consulting practice leaders here at DDI and has worked with many, many leaders over the years to become better coaches. Patrick, welcome to the Leadership 480 podcast.

Patrick Connell:

Thanks, Beth. Appreciate it. Glad to be here.

Beth Almes:

So, let's start with just the basics. Can you lay it out for me, what does it mean for a leader to be a good coach, and what's the difference between coaching and just, honestly, regular day-to-day management?

Patrick Connell:

It's a great question and it actually comes up a lot too in my conversation from leaders as well. So, it's a good thing, I think, a great place for us to start. A few things really come to mind, and this is from my own experience also working with leaders as well, but then also what's the research and what's happening too in this space from a research perspective too, but a few things really stand out.

So, first is I think really top of list is being willing and focused on actively listening. It sounds really basic, but if you're not really fully engaged in listening to what that other person is telling you and being able to really absorb that, you're not going to be able to really help them bring a new lens or make connections to things that are happening within their context or in their role. So that active listening allows you to really dive deep, but also to really build trust too, which is obviously paramount as a coach.

I feel too in a role as a coach, I always try to bring this to my coaching engagements is, helping that person reframe their thinking and providing a new insight. They walk away from that conversation knowing something about themselves or some new insight that they didn't have before, and providing them with a new lens about themselves. And obviously that can come from different areas, that can come from just the discussion itself, probing questions, insights from maybe an assessment that's part of that coaching engagement. But helping them to reframe and provide a new lens.

And also, being willing to challenge. I think a good coach is there to help, not just to listen but to challenge thinking and to help challenge... to help lead that person to self-discovery. And so I always start my coaching engagements with that expectation that, "I'm here to listen, I'm going to help you make connections, but I'm also going to challenge you in places too, to really bring out some of that additional reflection and get us focused in areas too that must be most impactful for you."

The final one I'll say too, and this has become more of a focus for me too, personally, just as I've tried to evolve my own coaching approach, which is focusing on the whole person. A lot of organizations are also taking this type of approach too in terms of focusing on not only employee experience but employee wellbeing. I think the same intent applies to your focus as a coach as well. So, what are you practically helping them to maybe work through, but also those situations don't happen in a vacuum, so how do you really make sure you're bringing a whole-person focus to those conversations as well, as a coach?

Beth Almes:

Oh, I love that because there's always something else going on with people that why they're reacting might have nothing to do with the situation itself. I'm curious though, as I'm thinking about if I'm a manager and I'm looking to coach my employees in the everyday, you mentioned as you sit down and you think about what you're going to say in advance, sometimes we have opportunities to sit down with our direct reports and really plan out, "Here are some things we need to talk about," and sometimes we don't, it happens at the moment. So, are there common moments that you see that are really effective for coaching, whether it's planned or unplanned?

Patrick Connell:

Yeah, I think first of all, that's very realistic. Probably every leader who's listening to this podcast would nod their head around having unexpected coaching moments. I had one just this morning as well, so that definitely resonates. I think it comes down to the person's need. So, I always think about in those moments, am I really able to zero in on what that need is in that unexpected moment, and am I able to really address it for that person and help them think it through? So that's the primary North Star.

I think though the ones that I feel like can be the most impactful is especially when there's a real time challenge that maybe they're working through, it just surfaced on a meeting, they just have or they have a meeting coming up in a short amount of time, and there's some new information that's thrown a mention to things and they're not sure how to handle it, for example. I've had really impactful conversations where you can really zero in in that moment and help them feel prepared for that challenge.

Or for the con of that, where there's stretch opportunities that maybe have just surfaced that they have to step into. So, something unfamiliar. They're unfamiliar with how to navigate a new situation, they've never had to tackle that before. There's some nervousness, there's some anxiety, there's some guidance that's needed. And so, as a coach, if you're able to, again, address both the practical needs of that situation, but also the personal needs that are at play, it's usually both, and have that person really feel set up for success for that particular situation or that challenge, that's when it really, I think, all comes together in those unexpected moments.

Beth Almes:

That's really interesting. And I'm thinking about the fact that for most of us, our natural reaction is in those unexpected moments of... you're just going to react to whatever it is the person is saying and things like that. But I'm wondering in those moments do you find there's a little light bulb that goes off that's like dinging, this is a coaching moment, don't just react to what they're saying, but flip your switch to a coaching mindset that maybe you weren't in before?

Patrick Connell:

I do. I hear that ding all the time, right?

Beth Almes:

Just in our conversations, or?

Patrick Connell:

We know that ding that's in personal and practical situations. But yeah, you're going to get those cues, and usually it's because the person, A, has reached out, but B is struggling with something, or has expressed to me that they need help on how to navigate some type of situation, no matter what it is. And I think this was a learning for me early on from a coaching standpoint where, and I think I've seen a lot of leaders also, this is an area that they can struggle with initially, is equating coaching with fixing, right?

So, there's a problem in front of you, especially those of us who are very strong problem solvers, maybe that's how we've advanced in our careers because we were able to fix things and find a solution, so it's a comfort space for us too. And so, when our team members come to us with a problem, our first reaction maybe, "Okay, I'm going to fix it for this person."

And to your point about that ding moment, that's where especially earlier on in my career as a leader, I had to really listen to that ding and take a step back because every part of me was maybe wanting to jump in and solve that problem for that person because I had solved a similar issue before maybe in the past or I thought I had an answer, instead, lead with questions that are going to help that individual start to uncover what's the right path, the right solution themselves with your support and guidance.

And that's where it shifts from just fixing the problem to an actual coaching conversation, in my opinion, because, again, you're driving towards that self-insight, that self-reflection, self-discovery that's going to allow them to address that issue or that problem, but also, it's going to allow them to build capability that they can solve a similar problem in the future maybe without support. And that to me is probably the distinction in some of those moments.

Beth Almes:

So, what you're saying sounds really straightforward to me. I understand it, but it sounds like one of the hardest things to actually.

Patrick Connell:

I'm saying it sounds straightforward, I'm like, "That's great.

Beth Almes:

I am on board, stop problem-solving and start coaching, but it's just really hard to do that always in the moment when you're used to something else. And I'm curious if there are, whether it's that part or other parts of coaching that you really see managers struggle, or the things that they have a hard time getting, even if they're like, "Sounds great, but it's really hard for me to practice this"?

Patrick Connell:

Yeah, I think there's two things. So, areas where I see leaders struggle, I struggle with this myself, and where we can sometimes get it wrong as a coach. So, I talked a little bit about that fixer mindset, so leading with just fixing as opposed to actually coaching that person through finding that solution in tandem. I think too, as well, we lead sometimes with more telling than seeking. So, one of the most powerful tools we have as coaches is, I think, to ask the right questions, and to layer different types of questions.

So, a lot of times, and anytime I'm thinking about a coaching engagement that I have coming up, I'm really thinking very intentionally about the questions I'm going to ask to start to peel the onion with that person and their context and whatever challenges may be top of mind for them. 

So, I'm going to ask questions that are going to get more at the context, what is their business context? What is the context of maybe this issue, or this challenge they're trying to solve? I'm going to ask questions that get more at the why, so causal questions. "So why is that an issue? What's driving that? Why do you think that is?"

But I'm also going to be layering in challenge questions as well, which are hard to sometimes really formulate and insert in the right places, but they could be some of the most powerful tools, and this is with those more challenged questions, you're asking them to imagine a different outcome. "What would it look like if you were actually able to change this aspect on your team? What kind of benefits might you see there? Then what does that mean for you then if you're going to be able to drive that outcome? Or imagine a scenario where your team is really firing on all cylinders and they're able to solve a lot of these day-to-day issues that you're stepping into right now, what would that do in terms of being back to your focus as a leader in your role?"

So, questions like that to really get them to step out and, again, take a new perspective. And those are sometimes the questions that get mixed if you're too much in the sort of funnel mode of trying to solve that problem for that person.

The other piece, again, I've... This conversation's so therapeutic, I feel like I'm saying areas that I struggled with as well-

Beth Almes:

That's what I'm here for, Patrick, you let it out.

Patrick Connell:

That's right. There's a double bonus here. But in all seriousness, where I made mistakes as well as a coach early on is with lack of follow up. So, you have the conversation, it goes well, the person feels equipped to take it on, but then I wouldn't follow up post to really understand, "Well how did that turn out? What was the outcome?" And not just to see how it turned out, but what are the reflections from that? "So, what did you do? What worked well with it? What were some, maybe, surprise insights or new reflections that you had, and would you do anything differently afterwards?"

That reflection I think is sometimes overlooked and it's such a key part of trying to drive more of that, but also be able to build the capability for them to be able to approach those situations more confidently and more effectively in the future.

Beth Almes:

Those are great points. And I think it's one of the things that... I think, so for many of us, when you think coach, you think sports and the analogy comes to your mind so immediately of like, "Oh, I get it, a great coach is someone who's not the center of attention, they get their team to perform. Fabulous." However, when I do think of a coach, I also think of someone who tends to tell versus ask, they're the ones who are always going, "Hey, try it this way instead," or "I want you to practice. I want you to do this instead."

And that's where it can get a little tricky as you think of the telling versus the asking questions you mentioned that is in the workplace so much more powerful. Where it comes full circle for me is that what you do get from a sports coach is usually the performance piece of after the game or after whatever you went and did, it's like, "Hey, you struck out two out of four times or whatever. How do you feel about that? What's going to happen next? How do we fix that problem next time?" So, getting the results you mentioned, that's the great part of... they do that, and that is such a missing piece of it's not just, "Go think about how to be better, and best of luck to you."

Patrick Connell:

Exactly. Yeah. I'm going to say something that sounds really simple. The concept is simple, but the application of it is not, and that is finding the right balance between seeking and being more prescriptive because there are situations as leaders that we've all faced where you do have to be more prescriptive in the moment. Maybe it is a very high-risk type of situation, there's high urgency. You've really got to direct one of your team members to take quick action, it's got to be the right action, so you've got to lean more on that prescriptive approach.

But then there's times as well where maybe those factors aren't as apparent, there's less urgency, less risk, you have more time, so you can lead with more seeking. And then, of course, balancing that with guidance and support as well. So as coaches we have to make, based on those situations, we have to adjust and be pretty nimble on finding that right balance.

Beth Almes:

Yeah, I think that's such an interesting piece. And then I was also curious around, there's been a rise in recent years of things like strengths-based coaching, I've heard about things like that. And I'm curious in your thoughts of... So, in strengths-based coaching, I'm going to boil it down to the basics of just it's helping someone identify, leverage their strengths rather than focusing on the weaknesses, whereas sometimes you think about coaching as more around the weaknesses.

And I'm curious about your perspective. For most leaders, do you think that a strengths-based approach works? Does that cause issues or cause things to be overlooked? Because I'll be honest, my reaction to it is, "That sounds really nice and it would make me feel a lot better," but I'm also a little worried that what about the stuff that honestly, I'm not that good at and I need to know?

Patrick Connell:

Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question, and I get this a lot from folks that maybe I've been coaching or other clients as well. And I think there's a lot of value to strengths-based coaching, our strengths are usually what people notice about us first. They're actually-

Beth Almes:

What a relief that is. I thought it was the other way round.

Patrick Connell:

Yes, that's the intent at least. That's what I tell myself before I go to sleep at night. But they tend to be pretty apparent, they are big drivers for why we have achieved success, and why we are where we are because we've been able to leverage those strengths well. So, it's a key part of the puzzle, and I actually think that model, it also does another really important thing, which is it brings strengths to the surface because human nature, and this happens, I do it myself, this happens almost in every, not every, but very many coaching conversations that I have.

Where do we go as humans first when we're doing self-reflection? We tend to go where we feel like we are doing things wrong, or we have weaknesses, or we see gaps within ourself. We go straight to those places. And it's not like those places don't matter, but they can quickly overshadow the strengths that we bring to the table.

So all that being said, I think there is value in that approach. The nuance that I would add to it, and this is my point of view, DDI's point of view as well, is again, bringing back to this concept of balance, it's both. So really making sure that the individual has good self-awareness of what their strengths are and how to best leverage those, and then what are also development opportunities that they have as well that deserves some attention and focus, and bringing more of that holistic focus to the conversation and to the approach from a coaching perspective.

I think, A, it's more holistic, it's more balanced. But the other really important benefit of that is it allows to surface the connection between your strengths and your development areas because you may have a strength that's more natural that can help you with the development area that you have, so those things can go hand in hand. For instance, I was working with a leader not too long ago actually. This person was more of a senior leader, she was very confident, great presence, that person who could really step towards tough situations, and that was a huge asset for her. Think about in meetings with her peers, meetings at executive levels, that really resonated quite well.

But it could be, I'll use this term like a strength overused at times because she wasn't pivoting that approach with her team and as a result, she could be perceived as sometimes intimidating or her folks on our team were scared sometimes to bring things to her attention because it could be she would sometimes take over the conversation because she could be so confident and comfortable in those scenarios.

And so, we worked a lot around how do you leverage how you leverage that strength of confidence because that's going to give your team confidence, but it's got to be more nuanced in how you actually deliver that approach when you're having conversations with your direct team versus at more senior levels. And so how to pivot that conference in a way that's going to be more aligned to the audience was something that was a big aha for her.

Beth Almes:

That is really nuanced, and it's so effective though. That's a really common situation, I think, for lots of people who don't realize that their own sense of calm or confidence about things can actually sometimes cause other people to be reluctant to ask for their help, their coaching, things like that because it's like, "Well, they've got all the answers, they're not going to be able to help me."

I'm wondering too, the other... related to that is, sometimes it can be hard to see when you're the leader and you're helping someone else, especially if it's an area that you're very good at, it can be hard to sometimes see how someone could develop into that. It's sometimes you get in this fixed mindset of, "I just don't know that they're capable of this." How important do you think mindset is when you're coaching others, and how do you start to switch that thinking of, "I just don't know if they can do it"?

Patrick Connell:

Yeah, it's an interesting question, and I think it brings into the picture a couple of things. One is this concept, I'm sure probably a lot of people listening have heard around this notion of a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset as well. And there's been a lot of research and a lot of emphasis around, how do you drive a growth mindset within your leaders, within your organization?

I personally think there's a lot of power to that, and as a coach, you really need to have a growth mindset yourself because you've got to bring to these conversations a level of curiosity, you've got to be willing to probe to uncover insights, both spoken and unspoken. You've got to be able to make connections, et cetera. And when you're thinking about your folks on your team, when I've reflected on this as well in the past, what is that person's potential and where could I see them going? And also, what data do I have to support that?

That's been places where I feel like I'm, and maybe more of a fixed mindset about a certain individual, and that can be someone on your team, it can be a peer, it doesn't matter. If I feel like maybe I'm slipping a bit of a fixed mindset about a particular individual, being willing to challenge myself and think about, "Well, what data would I have that would support that or go against that?" I know there's some biases that might be coming into play too. And are there some questions that I can start to ask to test some of those biases, and possibly gather new data that would give me more of an unbiased perspective?

So there are times when you're coaching someone and there is maybe a ceiling there, or you may not be able to get them to the final destination that they have for themselves or that you maybe thought that they might have as well yourself, personally. But how you're able to gather data insight and calibrate along the way and challenge your own assumptions, I think is a way to stay out of the trap of just staying in a fixed perception about that person, or a fixed perception about yourself as a coach, it goes both ways.

Beth Almes:

Oh, yeah, that's a really great way to reframe that, I think. But I do want to talk about biases you mentioned. So I'll give the caveat that I think most of us are biased, and unintentionally so, we don't intend to purposely be exclusive of anyone or there's anything about it. But I have heard from a number of friends, colleagues, family members of situations where people feel like they don't get as much coaching as other people who are, either they're closer personally to the manager or they are sort of like a protege of the manager, very similar to the manager's. And as a result, people feel like they don't have the chances to grow because they don't share some of the same background or share some similarities with their manager.

And I've also heard the reverse from some managers about with coaching, there is sometimes it's not criticism, but it's coaching for improvement. It's things you did that maybe could be better. And there's sometimes some fear from managers about giving coaching to people who they're not as comfortable with, whether it's because they're a different gender or background or whatever, they are afraid that they will not come off right, or their comments will be misconstrued, and so they avoid it. So how do you think leaders can break some of that bias and go about coaching more equitably?

Patrick Connell:

It's an important call-out and

Beth Almes:

And the longest question ever asked, by the way.

Patrick Connell:

So, I'm tracking. I'm tracking. There's a lot baked in there, but it's an important question, and maybe let me unpack it in a couple of different ways, if that's okay.

Beth Almes:

Absolutely.

Patrick Connell:

One is I've heard similar, and I've had feelings of that myself as well too, where all of us are more comfortable, maybe, in certain spaces than others. And if you can feel uncomfortable and you don't want to say the wrong thing, I think that's a natural thing that we as humans just experience too, whether it's from a coaching perspective or just in our daily life. So I think that's a real reality that's there.

I think the second is too, we all are... we can fall victim to biases. And so in thinking about your teams asking the question, "Am I being biased at, maybe, the level of coaching or support that I'm providing to my team?" I think it's an important question we should all ask as leaders from that front.

And so two things that I've personally applied myself as well as working with other leaders is thinking about doing first some self-reflection to address that question. So either by yourself, or I've seen a lot of power coming from doing some self-reflection with a trusted peer where you do start to think about, "Do I have any biases? If I do, what are they? Where am I most likely to spend my time across my team, from a coaching perspective? Why am I doing that? What's driving that? Are there real reasons for that, or are there some things that maybe I'm doing because I tend to be more biased in a particular way that's driving that behavior? And as a result, what missed opportunities might I have?"

So I think asking yourselves those questions, and like I said, I think the power of doing that with a partner who can challenge you, can be pretty powerful. The other is in those uncomfortable situations where maybe you feel like, "I just don't want to say the wrong thing, but I still want to lead with an inclusive mindset, and I want that to resonate with this person. How to do that effectively?" And I try to practice this myself because I've seen it in action and it's very powerful, and I've seen it across a number of different leaders, but the power of leading with transparency and vulnerability in those moments.

And I have an example, this was early on in my career just joining the organization, but I had a new manager. And I personally identify as a gay man, as part of the LGBTQ+ community. And early in my career, I was in a meeting, my manager was part of that, and there was a situation where a comment was shared that was inappropriate, and it targeted more to the LGBTQ+ community. And so I definitely felt that in that moment it was not the person's intent for it to come across that way, but it was there, and it really wasn't acknowledged, but we moved on and so forth.

And I remember my manager at the time approaching me after that and saying, "I just wanted to check in with you around what just happened there. I don't have the same perspective as you, obviously, but I know I was personally offended by it, and I wanted to get your perspective on that as well. And I just want to check in with you on how you're feeling." And my boss at the time was a straight man. And I could tell this was a bit uncomfortable for him to broach the topic with me.

But what I appreciated about it was he led with some vulnerability. He stepped towards it, he was transparent, and it was clear that he had the best intentions and my best interest at heart having that conversation, and he wasn't just going to let it slide, which would've been the easiest thing to do. And so I try to remember that example, how I felt in that moment, how it helped me really have trust in that leader. In those situations where I'm faced with something similar that's unfamiliar and uncomfortable, I try to adapt some of those same principles.

Beth Almes:

What I love in that story, Patrick, is that your boss asked you how you felt and said, "I was offended," but didn't even assume that you were because you might've said, "No, I don't know the comment." But maybe you said, "Really, I wasn't offended and it's not something that's an issue."

"Okay, great."

But they just asked how you felt. They recognized that it was a potentially uncomfortable... They felt upset by it, but they didn't have to go into a whole story about why it was offensive or why you should be... because maybe you didn't feel that way at all, and what a great way to handle it. I'm interested too. So that's a great story of how coaching can really change trust, change, performance, change, how people feel about their teams.

And maybe I should have started with this question in the beginning, but as you've seen leaders become better coaches to their teams, how have you seen that change their own performance and as well as the performance as the people who report to them?

Patrick Connell:

I've seen it in a number of important ways, I would say, and I've experienced it myself as well. I think first and foremost, you think about our role as leaders, one of the primary charges we have, a North Star for us is to help to drive results through others, you're not driving results yourself, you're empowering others to have an impact. And so to me, if you're not stepping into coaching as such an effective lever to accomplish that objective, we're just completely missing the boat from that perspective. It's almost like we're swinging at the wrong ball, if that makes sense, from that perspective.

And so by the way, I should never use sports analogies because I'm not an athletic person ever, but that's my best attempt, don't ask me to do another one. But in all seriousness, no, I think that's also the mind shift I see with a lot of individuals who are just new in leadership roles as well. I went through it myself, which is you can't have the impact that you want if you're not able to step in and coach, I think, courageously is the word I'm looking for. And what I mean by that is you've got to step into the more straightforward situations, you've also also got to step towards the hard situations. You've also got to surface situations that are not going to land on your plate, but that you've got to seek those out.

One of the most important things I think you can be as a leader is an effective coach because without that primary objective is being to bring out the best in others and also be able to drive results through others, you're missing such a key part of the toolkit from that perspective.

Beth Almes:

Yeah. So, let's say if you eventually master this, it becomes the way you lead every day as a frontline leader, and you become a great coach. And sometimes at the frontline it can be a little bit easier when you're coaching people in an area where you have a lot of knowledge, a lot of expertise, and you become great at this. But as you maybe move up the ranks, or as you take on more different functions of people who are doing jobs you've never done before, or maybe you're leading other leaders, how does coaching start to change as you develop as a leader?

Patrick Connell:

I think it's a really important question to ask, and even the most experienced coaches would say they have not mastered coaching. It's a continuous journey that each of us are on, and even those that have been doing it for decades are still seeking opportunities, looking for opportunities to elevate their approach, and even further hone their approach. But it's a very natural feeling. I think we do feel more comfortable coaching in areas that we're familiar with, and usually that's where we're pretty good at it too because we've experienced it, we've had the lessons learned that we can pass on, we know what can go wrong, and then we can keep folks out of some of those pitfalls based on our experience.

But to your point, they start to progress. That level of familiarity is not going to be there all the time, and especially as your scope increases. I'm living that right now as well, so managing folks in roles that I've never had personally as well. So your question's quite timely, actually. Again, this is the therapy part that maybe is coming out.

Beth Almes:

I was told to ask you this by your team. No, I'm just kidding.

Patrick Connell:

Yes, exactly. Anonymously, right?

Beth Almes:

I had an anonymous tip that came in.

Patrick Connell:

But it's a real challenge. And so, things that I've encouraged individuals, that I've coached leaders, that I've coached, and I'm doing this myself, it's in those situations. How you're leaning on three things. One, we've already talked about how you're intentionally seeking to gain additional context, but you're using what you're gathering from those questions and the seeking to test. So, it feels like this is the challenge, it feels like the dynamic that I'm hearing is here because of X, Y, Z factors, and you're trying to drive X. But is that right? Am I putting the pieces together?

That helps in the unfamiliar territory for, maybe, you to connect the dots. And then if you're right, that person can validate that, or if you're not, then they'll give you information, you can pivot. So, you're seeking, you're testing, and you're adjusting in the moment. And I think that applies to any coaching conversation, especially when you're coaching individuals or you're having conversations as new territory for you, personally, but you still need to guide and support. How you're asking the right questions to seek and test and then adjust accordingly as you gain new information, that nimbleness as a coach, I think, becomes even more important in those scenarios where you just haven't had that firsthand experience yourself.

Beth Almes:

Yeah, absolutely. It becomes a lot more about solving the problem with someone, I suppose, rather than, "I've got just the thing for you. I know how to do that."

Patrick Connell:

Right. And I've been transparent. I'll lead a lot of times with, "I don't have expertise in that particular area, so I'm just going to put the pieces together, and then you tell me where I'm on and where I'm off. But it feels like this where it sounds like this, and the implications of that are X. Is that tracking though? How well is that aligned to the challenge that you've got in front of you right now?" And then that opens up a whole dialogue again that can give you more acres, and help you feel more comfortable, and then allow you to be more prescriptive when you need to for those conversations.

Beth Almes:

Oh, Patrick, that's so helpful. And I think those questions you mentioned earlier, I imagine, are probably super helpful at this point as well of, "It sounds like you're facing this barrier and you can't reach it, you can't overcome it because of X." That's just seems like such a powerful way to go about it.

So, the last thing I'll ask you, you've been wonderful about sharing some of your personal experiences on this podcast, but I'll ask you to share one more because I always end all of my podcasts with this, but I wanted to ask you about a moment of leadership that changed your life. It doesn't have to be about coaching, but something that changed you for good or for bad. So, something along the lines of it could be something that made you say, "Hey, I want to do more with leadership, what an inspiration," or others who are like, "I will never be that leader." So, a moment of leadership that changed your life.

Patrick Connell:

We all have our stories both good and bad. And so, I'll focus, we're ending on a high note, so I'll focus on one that is more impactful. It's less of a specific example, it's more though of a leader that has a personal impact on me early in my career to the point now they sort of are my inner barometer, or when I have to face challenging leadership situations, or I have to help coach someone through something that's challenging, and I don't know right off the bat what I'm going to do, I kind of think back to, "Well, how would this person do it?" And I think the fact that my mind goes there naturally, I think is a testament to the impact this person had on me and my career.

But the reason that person always comes to mind is they really embodied a lot of things that we talked about. They saw me as a whole person, so that leader was really focused on helping me professionally, but understanding that we're all human, we all have personal lives, and that's a part of the equation, and that impacts, obviously, who we are at work as well, and he was very cognizant of that, which when you're early in your career too, I think that's really good for you to experience because you take that with you. He was also really transparent when he didn't have an answer for something or when something was really hairy and complex and hard. He was transparent about that.

I remember being at a client site for a large-scale project that we had. Stuff had hit the fan, shall we say, and there were other team members that had to unexpectedly were not in the equation anymore, and so it was really just him and I that had to figure this out. And I remember him looking at me at that hotel lobby around, "Okay, this isn't great. Here's what we're going to do. I'm going to go call my kids really quick because I haven't talked to them all day, and I just need to step away. You and I are then going to meet at the hotel bar, we're going to have a drink, and then we're going to figure out this mess that's in front of us. It's going to be messy, but we'll figure it out, and the world isn't ending."

And so that helped to just calm my anxiety. And another thing he mentioned was, "I don't have the answer right now, but we'll have the right answer, we'll figure it out." That level of transparency, I think that's something I continue to take forward. And then being willing to roll up his sleeves with me to get things done, not just sort of pontificate on what's the right thing to do but roll up his sleeves to actually get down and dirty and make those things happen when that was something that I really needed.

So, all those pieces, I think it's less about a moment, it's more about those behaviors, how they culminated together. But those are pieces that I just take to me to this day, now that I've been in various leadership roles that I think helped keep me grounded, especially in those moments where there isn't a clear answer.

Beth Almes:

I loved that that leader also showed a little bit of their own vulnerability in saying, "Yeah, do you know what? This was upsetting, and I need a minute too, I need to talk to my family. And so, we're going to solve it together." But the piece of taking a minute, even for themselves, not saying, "You probably need a minute, but I'm strong, I'm good to go. We're both going to take a minute because we probably need to decompress and then we'll solve the problem." Really, such a powerful story, as have all of your stories been today, Patrick. I cannot thank you enough for being here today on the podcast. Thanks for joining us.

Patrick Connell:

No, it was my pleasure. Thanks for the good questions.

Beth Almes:

And thank you to our listeners who took part of their 480 minutes to be with us today. And remember to make every moment of leadership count.