How to Become a Humble Leader

Transcript

Beth Almes: 

Hi leaders and welcome back to the Leadership 480 podcast. I'm your host, Beth Almes, and today our topic is one that has captivated attention for decades, but is really tough to master, how to become a humble leader. It's one of those concepts that sounds great, and we all want to work for a humble leader, but it can be really challenging to actually do it. And if we're being honest, a lot of us might quietly question whether humility is the best way to build our careers. Do we have to forego recognition to become humble leaders? So, here to correct all of our misconceptions about being a humble leader and share practical tips on how to become humbler is Dr. Josh Wymore. Josh has helped Fortune 500 leaders around the world become more of the leaders they were meant to be and has just published a new book called Humbler Leadership. Josh is also an executive coach and consultant for DDI and his own consulting company, Wymore. Josh, welcome to the Leadership 480 podcast.

Josh Wymore:                 

Thanks for having me, Beth.

Beth Almes:                     

So, I'll dive right in with an honest question. Humility is really the opposite of a glamorous topic. It's all about kind of shedding the limelight in some ways. So, what got you interested in this topic and how humility is related to leadership?

Josh Wymore:                 

Yeah, great question. I can tell you it's not because I am the humblest person in the world, and I don't say that with false modesty. That's an actual fact, and I have witnesses to prove it. What really got me fascinated with this is personally, I came across a truly humble leader about 15 or 20 years ago, and it changed the course of my life. His name was Brad, he was a softball coach. And I tell this story in the book. And what was so fascinating about Brad is that he was able to do things I couldn't do as a leader. And I was still new in my leadership journey. I lacked confidence. Well, I didn't lack confidence, I lacked competence. I had too much confidence and I couldn't get where I needed to go with the team. I couldn't build trust; I couldn't get results.

And Brad had this way of engaging me, giving me really difficult feedback, pushing me to be better, but all in this way that made me want to follow him. And so, I said, man, I've got to figure out how to do that. And so, I spent the next 10 or 15 years practicing that, reading more about that. And then as I transitioned into the space I'm in now, leadership development and working with executives, I realized, wow, there's just such a compelling need for this virtue. It's not something we think about very often. And even when we do think about it, we don't really have a plan for how to become humbler. It's like you either have it or you don't, you're wired for it or not. And so, I wanted to write a book that would move this conversation forward, put it on the radar of people who weren't thinking about it, and for those that were thinking about it, give them some practical steps they could take to actually become a little bit humbler every day.

Beth Almes:                     

So, you used an interesting word there, Josh, of virtue. So, humility is often thought of as something that's such a good virtue to have and it's an attractive quality. And there can be, for some of us, we feel like it can be rooted in faith. There's a higher calling to be humble. But there's also the workplace, the practical side of humility. So my question is, when you say it's a virtue or something good to have, do you view humility as a way to become a better person, which is great, or does it actually make you better at your job?

Josh Wymore:                 

Yes.

Beth Almes:                     

That's a fast answer.

Josh Wymore:                 

Yes. The answer is yes. I mean, the subtitle of my book is "How to Enhance Your Effectiveness and Enrich Your Life." And the promise of humility is that it does both those things. It not only makes you a better person, which your spouse will thank me later for you listening to this podcast because you become humbler, but it also makes you more effective. And that's what's crazy is that so much has been written on the virtue side of this from religious traditions or spiritual traditions, and that's absolutely true. But there's two decades of social science research now showing that humble leaders just flat out get better results. They build stronger teams, they make better decisions, they draw out the best in others.

And then the personal enrichment side as well, they have better marriages, they have less stress, they're happier. There are so many reasons there that even if you didn't care a lick about virtue, if you had no moral qualms at all, but you just wanted to get better results, you should be taking humility seriously. But the great news is it's not just that it also makes you a better person, more holistic person, a more purposeful person. It's a win-win.

Beth Almes:                     

It's interesting because you really don't see humility become the quality that you see in the type of leadership often covered in the media. So, when I think of leaders who are often held up as game changers in the business world, I would not say you frequently see them portrayed as humble leaders. But you're saying that, realistically, humble leaders can be in high profile positions absolutely and really be effective. It's not just about those who are more willing to tout their accomplishments.

Josh Wymore:                 

That's right. And I think it's great you put your finger on what we celebrate versus what gets results. We know that there's a lot of research saying that in general, women tend to be better at building cohesive teams than men. And yet, you look at the ratio of women in leadership and it's flip flopped from what research would predict would drive the case. And so, it's like, yeah, what we promote versus what actually gets results are often two different things. And so that's again, part of the reason for this book is to help us think more deeply around what we really want in our leaders. Is it what looks sexy or was it what actually works at a fundamental level? And I think humility is that thing that actually works at a fundamental level.

Beth Almes:                     

So, you mentioned to that some people think of humility as in innate quality. Some of us have more of it than others. Do you feel like it's something that leaders just you kind of have or is it something that you can learn?

Josh Wymore:                 

Well, as you could probably guess from the title, Humbler Leadership, I think we can all learn it. I think we can all get better at it. And that's actually one of the four pieces, the four pillars of humbler leadership are the growth mindset that no matter what it is in life, you can get better at it. And so yes, you may be naturally predisposed to be humble because of your personality, or you may be predisposed against it. Like me, I love attention naturally. I have to work to beat my ego back in those ways. But no matter where you are in that continuum, if you're the most arrogant person in the world or one of the most humble, you can all become a little bit humbler by being more intentional about that.

Beth Almes:                     

So, I think it's important then to level set about what we mean by humble leadership. Because when I think about humility and someone who is humble, I think of someone who always shies away from taking the credit for anything. It's always like, oh, it was the team. I didn't do anything. Or they don't recognize their own accomplishments. And guess there is something to, I think, recognizing others, but it sounds like that's a misconception. That's not really what humble leadership is. Not believing in yourself or saying that you didn't contribute anything, it's something different, right?

Josh Wymore:                 

That's right. Yeah, you nailed it. It's easy to look at the arrogant leader and say, okay, wow. They have a skewed self-perception. They think too highly of themselves. So, a humble leader, they have the opposite problem. They think too little of themselves. And the reality is that neither one of those is true. Humble leaders are fundamentally grounded in reality. There are four pillars, like I mentioned to humble leadership from the research and the first one is an accurate self-perception. That means that I understand my weaknesses. Yes, I see where I blew at, I know where I'm limited, but I also understand my strengths so I can show up and deliver what I do better than anyone else. And yeah, like you said, it's easy to think, oh, I have no strengths. I have nothing to offer. But that's just not fundamentally true. And humble leaders live in reality, and it's actually because of that first piece that they're able to do the second, which is appreciating others' strengths and contributions.

So, because I know my limitations, I know, oh my gosh, I need Beth to do this podcasting thing because man, that is not my cup of tea. Thank God we have Beth. And so now I can actually appreciate you because if I think I can do it all, I'm not going to appreciate you. And then the third and fourth piece are a growth mindset, which I already mentioned. And then the last is the greater purpose. A greater purpose is something outside of myself that I really give myself to. It's not about me and my brand, it's more about my team. About moving the organization forward, about accomplishing our mission.

And so, when you think about this misconception of humble leaders that they are just wallflowers, they never say anything, they never talk about their team. Well, again, some people maybe are predisposed of that, but humble, true, humble leaders, because of their greater purpose, they are willing to step up and say, hey, you know what? My team needs a shout out because they're doing great work here, and I don't want this to get lost in the mix. My purpose here is to help my team advance. Or I'd prefer not to raise my hand in an executive meeting. I'm the only woman here. I'm the only minority here, but I know that if this perspective is missed, then our organization's going to suffer. And so, I'm going to do the uncomfortable thing and step up and share my voice here.

And it also means for that person who loves to talk, who's so loquacious, they say, you know what? I've got a million thoughts, but man, let me just step back and wait and let the other voices in the room raise of the surface. So, whether it's elevating your voice or toning down your voice or whatever it is, it's that greater purpose drives so much of what you do as a humble leader.

Beth Almes:                     

So, one of the things I think is so complicated when we talk about being a humble leader is the innate sense of fairness we have of we want to be recognized appropriately for our accomplishments. And sometimes when you are a humble leader, I think people may worry that people aren't going to see the value that they contribute. So, I'm thinking especially for maybe those who are new to stepping into leadership, whether as a first-time leader or you're new to a higher-level leadership role, and humility might feel extra hard because you are working really hard to earn your place at the table and to get the respect for your team. And it might feel like at this point then humility is the last thing on your mind because all you're trying to do is prove your value for why you should be here. So, for those who are maybe new to a role or are working to establish themselves, how can you both do that and be humble at the same time? It's scary that you might not get recognized.

Josh Wymore:                 

Yeah. So, just so I understand your question there. Your question is, if I'm new to a leadership role and I feel like I need to prove myself, how can I be humble and prove myself at the same time?

Beth Almes:                     

Yeah, absolutely.

Josh Wymore:                 

Yeah. Well, I think like everything in life, there's always opportunity costs. And especially for the long-term plays, there's always short-term opportunity costs. And so, for instance, honesty. I think we'd all say honesty is an important value. We should all be honest. Will dishonesty ever not work out in your favor? Yeah, absolutely. If I'm willing to steal, then, hey, I can make more money right now than if I'm honest and I pass this money on the way it needs to be passed on. And so, if you ask me, does honesty always pay off? It's like, well, what do you mean? Because in the long term, absolutely. In the short term, not always the same goes for loving your kids. I love my kids and I want them to become independent adults. Does that mean that that always benefits me in the short run, man, I've eaten so many eggs that have eggshells in, they're crunchy eggs because I'm trying to teach my four-year-old how to cook. Now long term, I think that's the best approach. But is there a short-term trade off? Absolutely.

And so, I'd say it's the same thing with humility. Humility, because of the benefits it provides because of fundamentally who it makes you into as a human being. It is absolutely the right long-term play. And I would say every single time. Does that mean that sometimes I get ignored because I didn't toot my own horn? Yeah, it does sometimes. But does it mean that I think if I'm in a good organization, they're going to figure out, wow, this person just delivers again and again and again, and they do what's best for the organization and still they drive results. How do they pull this off? And one of the reasons will be because of humility.

Beth Almes:                     

I love that focus on humility in many ways being tied to the focus on results and letting those speak versus feeling like you have to talk about your own value and things like that. And that's just really hard to do. I think your analogy almost of like you might have a few failures too before you get to it being really good. You might have to eat a couple of eggshells, but I don't know, in two years, your kids might be making you the best eggs you've ever had, and you've just made your Sunday mornings great for the rest of your life.

Josh Wymore:                 

Right? I'll tell you, my four-year-old, the other day, one-handed, cracked eggs into the skillet with no eggshells. And I'm like, I can't even do that half the time. Where did you learn this? And it's because we've sat through all those eggshell eggs and then we debrief, hey, what worked, what didn't work? It's part of that growth mindset we're trying to cultivate. But yeah, if you don't have that long-term vision, if you're always in a rush, if you always need things to be right now, then you're going to atrophy those people you want to develop and even your own character in that process too.

Beth Almes:                     

So, the other thing you mentioned briefly was that sometimes this can feel more difficult for people who are from historically excluded groups. So, you mentioned maybe you're the only woman in the room, or maybe you are in the minority from a race or ethnicity perspective, or even just you have a different maybe background or degree than other people in the room. And a lot of the advice I have heard for those who feel historically excluded is that they have to be their own advocates because no one is going to do it for them. I've heard the adage from folks I've talked to have, they feel like they have to try twice as hard to achieve half as much. So how can you use humility as a tool, even in those situations where you're feeling anxious about being the only one speaking up rather than fear that humility is going to hold you back from people recognizing the real challenges at the table or what you have to offer.

Josh Wymore:                 

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that is a really tricky question. And if I had magical answer for that-

Beth Almes:                     

I'm here to make it challenging for you.

Josh Wymore:                 

Yeah, I love it. No, I mean, I think it's questions like this that keep us from practicing humility because it feels like it's just too messy, frankly. And to be honest, if you are in a privileged group, it feels like there's a little more room to be humble, right? Because if the CEO comes and wipes down tables for you, then it's like, oh, wow, look at the CEO, they're being so humble. But if it's just your boss or your peer, you almost kind of expect that, it doesn't have the same kind of effect. And so yeah, the reality is humility does land differently for different people.

So, I don't think the solution is that you don't ever advocate for yourself, because there's times that just doesn't make sense. I think the big thing here is your motive. And so again, if I'm advocating for myself because I want a promotion for myself because I deserve the glory, I think, first of all, you'll make a poor decision because you're operating out of insecurity. But secondly, you're going to turn off the people that you need to influence. They're going to sense that coming through, and then they're going to find reasons to say no. But if they can tell that, man, I'm advocating for this, not because it's about me, but because again, my team needs this, our organization needs this, our customers need this, then there may be some places where it benefits you as well. But that fundamentally, my primary motivation is for a purpose way larger than myself. And so, I think that gives you the leverage to do the right thing for the right reasons and get where you need to go.

Beth Almes:                     

So, a lot of it does sound really good too, of, I love the idea of staying close to your purpose, of being humble in the way that you lead, and it sounds really noble. But sometimes there's the human nature part of us that's going, but listen, I work really, really hard, and I do everything I can to bring my best to the table so it's hard not to take the credit. So, let's suppose I'm not always getting recognized for work. What's in it for me? When you become humbler, what do you really get out of it as a person?

Josh Wymore:                 

Yeah, that's a great question. Well, fundamentally, regardless of your status at work, your results at work or whatever, I mean, you go home with yourself at the end of every day. Or I guess if you're working remotely, you stay home with yourself every day. And so, I think fundamentally for me, I'm thinking, who are you becoming in the 480 minutes that you have every day, are you becoming more the kind of person that you were meant to be? The more of the best version of yourself? And humility is undoubtedly the path to that. As you think about the deathbed thing, looking back over your life, do you wish that you would've swindled a few more people and made a little bit more money along the way or become more of the person you're meant to be? So, that's a real heady kind of altruistic character level that frankly most of us aren't thinking about day to day.

So let me get a little more tangible. There's some really fascinating research by Neil Krauss and his colleagues from the University of Michigan that found that humble people are happier, that they are less depressed, they have less anxiety, they have greater life satisfaction because they've decoupled their performance and their need to prove themselves from their identity in a sense. They know that they've been able to let go of the things that are outside of their control and recognize, hey, the universe is bigger than me, right? I've got a greater purpose here. I have limitations, and that's okay. I've accepted those things.

And so, just at that level, just again, the kind of contentedness with my legacy and the greater happiness, I think that should be enough motivation for most of us. But it doesn't stop there. Humble people have stronger relationships, and again, they drive stronger performance over the long haul. Their teams function more effectively, humble CEOs produce better financial results for their team. And so, if you're not seeing the results in the short term, yeah, there may be a short-term trade-off, but over the long haul, I think as you look back over your life, it's going to be hard to think, man, I really just should have been a little bit more self-centered, and I would've ended up better. I don't think that's what you're going to say at the end of your career.

Beth Almes:                     

I can see how it can really reduce your own stress though, as you start to shift your thinking away from, I have to be everything and I have to be the best at everything, especially at work. And leaders in particular feel that way. And in some ways, I think, many view it as a service to others on their team of if I'm the best at everything or if I can do everything for them, that's a service to my team. And it sounds like it, in many ways, is a disservice both to yourself because you can't be all those things as well as your team where you're not recognizing what they can contribute.

Josh Wymore:                 

That's right. Yeah. I used to say when I was supervising student leaders early on in my career, that if you can't fail dramatically, you don't have real responsibility. So yeah, you may have gotten promoted because you were the best at your job, you were the strongest individual contributor. And it's easy to think that the way to serve your team is to continue to do everyone's job better than they can do it themselves. But at the end of the day, if I come to work and I know that if I just do this halfway, Beth's going to swoop in and save me at the end of the day, then why should I care? Why should I give my best? And so, part of the freedom and the responsibility that comes from leadership is knowing that, yeah, I hope I'm surrounded by people who are smarter than I am who know more than I do. And my job is to help them be successful, not to do their jobs for them. And that means giving them real responsibility, letting them fail, letting them learn from that failure.

And that's challenging because oftentimes we move up because we're good at controlling things and driving results, but it's one of those, what got you here won't get you there sort of thing. Yeah, you can be successful as an individual contributor by trying to control everything in your universe. But when you're leading teams or you're leading leaders who are leading other leaders, man, you got to find a way to lead humbly and lead through other people instead.

Beth Almes:                     

And it's hard to let go of being that expert that you mentioned of that's where you have added value to the workplace before of I have a set of knowledge and to flip that switch, especially when you're in a new situation and you're already feeling a little self-conscious, so many of us go in the opposite direction of, we try to compensate for what we don't know and pretend we do know instead. It's really hard to go the other direction and say, you're right, I'm new to this and I have no idea.

Josh Wymore:                 

That's right. And it's amazing. I think we fear so much saying, I don't know, or I can't do this because it's like everyone's going to just turn and look at us and they won't respect us all of a sudden. But the truth is that almost everybody in the room knows that about you already, and they're just waiting for you to admit that. And as a result, if you're not being honest with them about that, they're going to say, well, what else is that person not being honest with me about it? It undermines the trust. But to say, you know what? I don't know the answer to this. Let's figure out a plan to get there. I'll commit to resolving this, and maybe I delegate this. Maybe I go learn something, whatever. But to say, yes, let's acknowledge the problem. Let's make a plan to go forward, what a credibility builder, rather than just pretending that there's no elephant standing in the corner of our room.

Beth Almes:                     

Oh, that's such a good point, Josh, of you think you're covering it up, but everyone in the room knows, and it can end up being such a....if you're pretending you know when you don't. I've just been working with our team on one of our latest leadership studies, and we saw that leaders who were willing to admit their shortcomings, their teams were seven and a half times more likely to trust them. And that's so counterintuitive to say like, oh, I'm not sure. I don't know the answer. I'm really bad at that. Or I'm not as skilled in that area. That seems like you shouldn't trust me because I do not have it all together. But in fact, we see the opposite effect very strongly revealing itself, that your team says, okay, I trust you because you're going to tell me when you don't know, and we can figure it out together.

Josh Wymore:                 

Right. And I think actually, Brené Brown's research says the same thing, that the number one trust building thing you can do with your boss is to ask for help. And again, sounds counterintuitive right? The reason you hired me is to do this job, but I'm asking you for help. But if I'm a boss, that tells me one of two things, it tells me, one, this person actually knows their limits because they know that they've gotten out over their skis, and they need some help. And so, I know that I can give them some more leash because they'll tell me if they need help. And the second thing is, it helps me step in and help them be successful and move them forward. And so, they're going to get better results because of that. And so again, I want to give them more because I'll say, hey, I can trust you. I know you'll let me know when you need help. And that's just, again, counterintuitive as you said, but so empowering when we can just live vulnerably with each other that way.

Beth Almes:                     

I think that's a crucial takeaway of, I think, in your book you called it contagious humility of what happens to your team when I become more humble as the leader, how does that start to play out among your team and change their behaviors as well?

Josh Wymore:                 

That's right. Yeah. If I as the leader, am okay at admitting my mistakes, then everyone else is able to do that as well. And if you don't, it's amazing what happens. I think Carol Dweck did some research on this where when teachers were at the whiteboard, one of the groups of teachers, when they would make a mistake, they would say, "Oh, I'm so stupid. I shouldn't have done that." They would beat themselves up, and others would say, "Whoops, I made a mistake, that happens." And erase it, move on. And the teachers that beat themselves up, their students would start to beat themselves up about failure. They had that same high anxiety, high performance mindset because they replicated what they saw in their leader in this case, who was their teacher.

And that reverse was also true that the fix or the growth mindset teachers who, yeah, failure's a part of life, we accept it, move on. They're the students replicated it too. So, this is not just relevant for you at your office that those four-year-olds watching you at home, seeing you admit mistakes or deny that you made a mistake, man, it starts really, really young.

Beth Almes:                     

Wow. And as I listen to you, it's the consequences on the other end start to become clear. If you don't do it, you're going to have a team who hides from you and hides their mistakes. And oh gosh, that's really when things can become really, really bad, if, say you're in accounting and your team is hiding mistakes or they're trying to cover it up and something maybe they did truly as an accident, nothing badly intentioned, but you can run into some very serious trouble or in cultures if you're at a work culture that safety is a key concern. And people don't want to admit, oh, I messed that up, and it could hurt somebody. Or if there's a lot on the line.

Josh Wymore:                 

Well, and I'll say something you mentioned there, that there's a fear on the other side of this that comes in where it's that, well, if we just admit our mistakes all the time, then we're just going to lower standards. And so people will come in and say, yeah, we had a safety incident today. I'm being honest about it, and feel like they're off the hook because they just owned up to it. And some leaders, I think, fear, if I make it okay to fail, then we'll just accept failure.

And okay, sure, you can go that direction if you want. But to really have a growth mindset, it's not just acknowledging the failure, but it's okay, we failed. What did we learn? How are we going to get better tomorrow? Let's move forward from this. And that's when you actually see progress is when we can call the elephant out in the room, decide why it's there, and kick it out the door so it's not there anymore. And so, yeah, I think that fear is often misplaced. People are afraid to talk about failure because it feels like making it okay when in reality, we're just acknowledging it so we can address it and move forward.

Beth Almes:                     

So throughout this whole interview, I think it's come to light for me that so much of humility is not acknowledging what's going well or recognizing accomplishments, but really, I think as you started it is that accurate picture of both what's going on, and so what the reality is, both your own strengths personally, but also what's going on in your team and being really readily available to address what's going wrong and the mistakes are there. So, it's almost like humility is reality instead without putting the nice shiny coat on it.

Josh Wymore:                 

That's right. Yeah. It is the most accurate way to view yourself in relation to the world. It's recognizing that I am a person among people, not the person among objects as Arbinger Institute says. Yeah, it's committing to truth and committing to live in truth, because that's where we actually change things. We don't change things in our imaginary world where things are one way, we change things on the ground in reality. And it takes humility to just call a spade of spade, admit the funkiness or the messed up-ness of a situation, but that's when we can actually get results.

Beth Almes:                     

That was so powerful, Josh. So, the last question is one that I ask all of my guests on the show. Can you share with me a moment of leadership that really changed your life, either for the better of this is what I want to do or for the bad of, I observed that and I'm going to change it because I don't want to ever do that.

Josh Wymore:                 

Yeah. Well, there's a story of another humble leader that I didn't have space to fit into the book, but it was one of those really powerful experiences for me. It was at a university I worked at where we actually had to shut down a campus. And it was a really difficult situation because people's feelings were hurt, people had to lose their jobs, all that kind of stuff. And so, the executive who made that decision, made the decision and then kind of left the scene and announced in October, hey, this is happening in May. So, it was a long time between when the decision was made and when things were going to happen. And he was gone off the scene for several months. And while that happened, a lot of rumors spread, people got feelings hurt, and there was just kind of this caustic environment that was created there.

And so finally he came back to address the situation, had an open mic town hall to let people just come and to answer their questions. And by this time he realized, okay, I think I've been gone too long. I should have been closer to the situation. And so over the course of two hours, faculty and staff and students came up to the mic. And so many of them were just berating him, accusing him, just airing their anger and frustration. But because of my position, I knew a little bit of the backstory. He was getting blamed for things that were not his fault or things that were not true. And he could have very easily said, well, let me actually explain what happened to you, and kind of dismissed the thing. But he didn't do that. Instead, as they cried out in the audience, he stood up on stage and he cried. And he just said, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

And he just owned it. And he absorbed all of the hurt and anger in the room that was directed at him even when it wasn't fair. And just absorbed all that so that the people in that room could heal. And as he's crying up on stage, I'm crying in the audience. Because I know this person, and I know this isn't fair, but I see they are laying down their dignity and their self-righteousness and their image in this moment in order to do what is best for the greater purpose. And for me, it's like, wow, if that's what leadership can do, I want to do more of this. I want to become that kind of leader. It's just such an inspirational moment for me in my own leadership journey.

Beth Almes:                     

That's an incredible story, probably at a moment where that leader was feeling like, man, I probably looked really weak today, was really perceived as an incredibly strong leader to accept all of that instead of saying like, no, no, that's not right. And there were things I couldn't control. It doesn't really matter. It doesn't really matter. So, thank you for sharing that story. What a great example. And thank you for sharing all of your powerful advice today. We just appreciate you so much for being on the Leadership 480 podcast.

Josh Wymore:                 

Well, thanks for having me, Beth. I really am honored to be here too.

Beth Almes:                     

And thank you to all of our listeners who took part of their 480 minutes to be with us today. And remember to make every moment of leadership count.